killing butterflies for fun???

Thu May 9 13:26:41 EDT 2002

Joseph,

Perhaps 1/2 of the people on the leps list are collectors of lepidoptera. Many
collect for scientific purposes, many collect for their own personal desire to
grow as natural historians. It is unlikely that many or any enjoy killing
butterflies. We may enjoy the hunt or the sense of increased knowledge. We may
even enjoy having large collections in a childishly greedy way. People on this
list tend to be obsessed with Lepidoptera rather than with death. To really know
such diverse organisms, collecting them is the most certain way, even if it is
regrettable to take any life.

We do not need to agree that humans have special God-given rights to destroy
other beings, nor is it obvious that the US constitution gives private citizens
the right to do anything they wish with the natural world. Before the American
revolution, the English (sort of) King had most of those rights over wild
things; after the Constitution, most such rights were taken by the states. This
is why you need a license to hunt deer and are not allowed to hunt pumas at all
in California. But it appears to be the tradition of common law that creatures
of no interest to the King or the state get little legal attention from them.
And it is certainly the tradition of nature that all creatures are somebody's
lunch, and that adult butterflies do not live long no matter how distasteful.

As anyone knows who spends a little time thinking about it (and you say you
have), we cannot live without eating plants or animals. The death of Lepidoptera
due to agricultural pesticides, vehicular lepslaughter and keeping lights on at
night is enormous. If you seriously want to save butterflies and moths from
untimely deaths, you should cut back on your driving and your night-lights. Even
then, each year your food requirements will lead to the death of far more leps
than anyone on this list has ever collected. This is regrettable and I hope you
can handle the guilt.

The people on this list may not hold wise views on this and other issues. And we
may be defensive and offensive. But we sure have thought this through, and we
are not sadists.

Joseph, if you are serious. Get to know some of the butterflies. Buy one of
Jeffrey Glassberg's butterflies through binoculars books. Go to the library and
see what knowledge has come from collecting leps. Hold a swallowtail or
hairstreak butterfly in your hand (alive) and check to see if some bird has
bitten off a tail. Look at a book rich in detail about butterflies such as
Tyler, Brown and Wilson 1994, Swallowtail Butterflies of the Americas. And read
the animal-rights philosopher Peter Singer for a deeper analysis of the
relationship of humans to nature. Then come back and solve our problems for us.

If you are not serious, I hope this is useful to someone who is.

Patrick Foley
patfoley at csus.edu

Joseph Sugar wrote:

> Get a grip on reality????  I am trying to do the right thing here.  I am
> trying to stop a very disturbing practice and you tell ME to get a grip on
> reality?
>
> Telling someone what to wear is different from telling someone not to murder
> a living thing, dont'cha think????  We are not dealing with opinion, but
> with right vs. wrong.  Generally, those who wish to preserve life are right.
>   Those who take life are wrong.  I believe I have the support of most
> Americans in this.
>
> And you don't have to be an expert in butterflies to know that they
> shouldn't be "hunted for sport".  As I infered in my first post, if someone
> has the urge to kill something, then take it out on the bugs that do damage,
> like the moths.  But leave the butterflies, who everyone loves, ALONE!
>
> And Barb, in the middle of typing this, I received your bigfoot message.  I
> seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest when all I wanted to do is get some
> information.  I am very uncomfortable giving other people's names out on the
> web and I'm too busy to be playing the stupid games you suggest.
>
> Joseph
>
> >From: Sean Patrick Mullen <spm23 at cornell.edu>
> >To: josephsugar736 at hotmail.com
> >CC: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> >Subject: Re: killing butterflies for fun???
> >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:58:06 -0400
> >
> >Dear Joseph,
> >
> >Please get a grip on reality.  How much do you know about the
> >professional or amateur study of Lepidoptera?  My guess is nothing.
> >If you have well-thought out valid objections to collecting, then I
> >tip my hat to you and applaud the fact that you're making a personal
> >decision not to collect.  If, however, you are, as I suspect, making
> >a fairly uninformed and reactionary decision to champion new
> >legislation against collecting, then think about this for a minute.
> >
> >Do I tell you what you can wear?  What you should eat, how you should
> >worship, who you can or can not associate with?  No.  Why, because
> >your constitutional rights protect you from my opinions.  Now, if you
> >can convince 51% of the voting public that your right, then you can
> >force you ideas down my throat.  Until then, stick to what you know.
> >
> >-Sean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi butterfly lovers,
> >>
> >>I am new to this group and did a lot of searching to find you all.  I
> >>recently attended an audubon meeting in my county and the speaker
> >>did his talk on butterflies.  I went expecting to see pictures of
> >>live butterflies and to learn more about them.
> >>
> >>Instead, this guy (I won't mention his name - I don't want to get a
> >>lynch mob goin ;)), brought in his collection of butterflies that he
> >>killed and mounted FOR FUN!
> >>
> >>Since this is a butterfly group, I know you will be disturbed to
> >>hear this, but I was wondering if there are any laws to protect
> >>them?  Can just anyone go out an kill butterflies just for the fun
> >>of it?  He also had a collection of moths that had pins through
> >>them.  This didn't really bother me as much since most of them are
> >>pests, but it would seem to me that we would have laws to protect
> >>some of our most beautiful creatures.  What this guy does, and
> >>others like him, is morally wrong and I intend to turn around this
> >>disturbing trend that murder is okay as long as the perpetrator is having
> >>fun.
> >>
> >>Just looking for direction on where to go, and sorry if the
> >>discussion of dead butterflies has ruined your breakfast.
> >>
> >>Joseph
> >
> >--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Joseph S.
> New York, The US of A
>
> "A man who preserves a life, saves a life.
> A man who saves a life, gives life.
> A man who gives life, is a woman."
> _______________________________________________
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