killing butterflies for fun???

Thu May 9 14:36:16 EDT 2002

Ron,

Although I agree with you about many things, you may want to read Plato again
on right and wrong. While I also disagree with Socrates on some of this, he was
quite right to say that if there is an absolute right and wrong, it cannot be
something God creates. Even six year olds say "God is good", and mean something
other than "God is God".

And I am shocked that all of you God-fearing folk really imagine that fear of
God has anything to do with ethics. In particular, it is offensive to those who
do not fear God, yet try to do good things. I am also surprised that you know
so much about what God thinks.

To get back to the issue of collecting, I think that everyone (including me)
who claims to know God's plans for butterflies is speaking for themselves not
God. We should stick with things (subspecies, nomenclature, population ecology
and conservation) that we do know something about.

Patrick Foley
patfoley at csus.edu

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> Joseph
> 36 emails were waiting when I checked in at noon and yours way the first
> one I opened.  Then those which were responses. Then this second one of
> yours.
>
> I am an ordained minister in a main line denomination. I am glad to see in
> your post that you are pro-life and opposed to abortion.   You are
> incorrect though when you say that most Americans are pro life - they are
> not.
>
> Morality (right and wrong) is a central theme of  my profession.   Without
> a divine being, God, there is no such thing as right and wrong or morality.
> Animals, plants, elements etc. can not commit immorality.   Real morality
> only exists where there is a set of absolutes laid down by God.  Human
> societies vary a great deal in what _they_ consider to be right and wrong -
> and thus what is considered by them to be morality.   So are you using the
> term morality based on an absolute Divine list of rules or a societally
> subjective idea?
>
> It is evident that what you are calling morality is societal for two
> reasons.  1) God has made no such rule that butterflies can not be killed
> and that to do so is murder, but moths are bad and should be killed.  Moths
> and butterflies (and skippers too) are all the same thing - Lepidoptera.
> 2) Thus, your stated view that killing butterflies is murder but not moths
> is societal - and I might add a society of one - you.   In regard to his
> moth collection you said  "This didn't really bother me as much since most
> of them are pests."  Then below you say "As I infered in my first post, if
> someone has the urge to kill something, then take it out on the bugs that
> do damage, like the moths."
>
> You are either quite young, playing games with us, or very ignorant (or
> most likely, all three).  Butterflies do just as much "damage" as moths.
> Moths are just a beautiful as butterflies - often more so.  Anyone that has
> any real exposure to the real world of Lepidoptera knows this.
>
> There are a number of other things that I could get into, but I want to
> thank you very much for posting what you have here.  It thrills me every
> time I see something like this.  Why?  One never sees this attitude from
> any lepidopterist.  We only see it from a radical fringe element who refer
> to themselves in terms like butterflyers.   They are a self-righteous bunch
> who have set themselves up as demigods to judge and regulate lepidopterists
> (by everything from vigilantism to legislation).  Some people in the realm
> seem to be in denial that your kind exists.  Thus, every time we here from
> one of you it confirms that you are a (dangerious) reality.  Why am I glad?
> You provide the evidence that we lepidopterists are not paranoid - some
> really are out to get us.
>
> My real message here is to all the watcher groups.  These types are not
> ever going to be attracted to, join, or be involved with traditional
> lepidopterist's groups where the elements of nets and collecting are
> accepted.  They will come to your groups.  If you do not want this crap on
> your face (and I mean big gooey bear sh**) then it is up to you to stop
> molly coddling these types, kick them out of your organizations and clubs.
> The failure to do so sends a real clear message to the rest of us.  That is
> that your objections are only lip service and that down deep you identify
> with these sick, warped, dangerous terrorists.  Our world is filled today
> with groups giving lip service "condemnation" to radical elements while it
> is clear that the fellowship of sick ideals and immoral goals is alive and
> well among them all.
>
> Ron Gatrelle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Sugar" <josephsugar736 at hotmail.com>
> To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: killing butterflies for fun???
>
> > Get a grip on reality????  I am trying to do the right thing here.  I am
> > trying to stop a very disturbing practice and you tell ME to get a grip
> on
> > reality?
> >
> > Telling someone what to wear is different from telling someone not to
> murder
> > a living thing, dont'cha think????  We are not dealing with opinion, but
> > with right vs. wrong.  Generally, those who wish to preserve life are
> right.
> >   Those who take life are wrong.  I believe I have the support of most
> > Americans in this.
> >
> > And you don't have to be an expert in butterflies to know that they
> > shouldn't be "hunted for sport".  As I infered in my first post, if
> someone
> > has the urge to kill something, then take it out on the bugs that do
> damage,
> > like the moths.  But leave the butterflies, who everyone loves, ALONE!
> >
> > And Barb, in the middle of typing this, I received your bigfoot message.
> I
> > seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest when all I wanted to do is get
> some
> > information.  I am very uncomfortable giving other people's names out on
> the
> > web and I'm too busy to be playing the stupid games you suggest.
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Sean Patrick Mullen <spm23 at cornell.edu>
> > >To: josephsugar736 at hotmail.com
> > >CC: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> > >Subject: Re: killing butterflies for fun???
> > >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:58:06 -0400
> > >
> > >Dear Joseph,
> > >
> > >Please get a grip on reality.  How much do you know about the
> > >professional or amateur study of Lepidoptera?  My guess is nothing.
> > >If you have well-thought out valid objections to collecting, then I
> > >tip my hat to you and applaud the fact that you're making a personal
> > >decision not to collect.  If, however, you are, as I suspect, making
> > >a fairly uninformed and reactionary decision to champion new
> > >legislation against collecting, then think about this for a minute.
> > >
> > >Do I tell you what you can wear?  What you should eat, how you should
> > >worship, who you can or can not associate with?  No.  Why, because
> > >your constitutional rights protect you from my opinions.  Now, if you
> > >can convince 51% of the voting public that your right, then you can
> > >force you ideas down my throat.  Until then, stick to what you know.
> > >
> > >-Sean
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Hi butterfly lovers,
> > >>
> > >>I am new to this group and did a lot of searching to find you all.  I
> > >>recently attended an audubon meeting in my county and the speaker
> > >>did his talk on butterflies.  I went expecting to see pictures of
> > >>live butterflies and to learn more about them.
> > >>
> > >>Instead, this guy (I won't mention his name - I don't want to get a
> > >>lynch mob goin ;)), brought in his collection of butterflies that he
> > >>killed and mounted FOR FUN!
> > >>
> > >>Since this is a butterfly group, I know you will be disturbed to
> > >>hear this, but I was wondering if there are any laws to protect
> > >>them?  Can just anyone go out an kill butterflies just for the fun
> > >>of it?  He also had a collection of moths that had pins through
> > >>them.  This didn't really bother me as much since most of them are
> > >>pests, but it would seem to me that we would have laws to protect
> > >>some of our most beautiful creatures.  What this guy does, and
> > >>others like him, is morally wrong and I intend to turn around this
> > >>disturbing trend that murder is okay as long as the perpetrator is
> having
> > >>fun.
> > >>
> > >>Just looking for direction on where to go, and sorry if the
> > >>discussion of dead butterflies has ruined your breakfast.
> > >>
> > >>Joseph
> > >
> > >--
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Joseph S.
> > New York, The US of A
> >
> > "A man who preserves a life, saves a life.
> > A man who saves a life, gives life.
> > A man who gives life, is a woman."
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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