not dead, but sleeping

Ron Gatrelle gatrelle at
Wed Jul 9 13:07:42 EDT 2003

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stanley A. Gorodenski" <stan_gorodenski at>
Cc: "Leps List" <leps-l at>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: not dead, but sleeping

> I am not subscribed to TILS. I responded privately because I did not see
> reason to make this public. However, now that it is public let me say
that I
> have always felt TILS was a duplicate of what was happening in Leps-L,
> creationism thrown in.

Anne's remark about God really did tick me off.   God has never been a
topic on leps-talk and never will be.  My irritation with her was exactly
because I am aware of Stan's (and others) "perception" of this topic
there - and all she did was fuel that misconception.  Creationism has never
been discussed there as such - and won't be either.  It has been mentioned
a few times in non-religions ways.  But I'd say that out of 6,746 posts
there perhaps not more than 10 even referred to creationism in any way.
And they probably all came in about the same time.

For these reasons, I never joined. I had thought
> Leps-L had quieted down because people were tired of some of the
> personalities and arguments (I was not), but if I correctly read Ron's
> postings to get people to subscribe to Leps-Talk, it appears the same
> personalities and arguments are going on in Leps-Talk that were going on
> Leps-L.

I find it ironic that after months of very little traffic that the main
thing that got Leps-l active again is the discussion of another group.  I
am not the one to toot the horn about the "other" list serve I happen to
moderate.  Others can give / make comparisons if they want.  But, I will
say this.  What we have here is a bitch session - doesn't matter how it got
started.  THIS is typical Leps-l.  IT IS what usually happens here.  This
never happens on the other list.  Yes, we get in debates on the Code,
taxonomic concepts, and other real leps issues.  But not these yadda yadda
threads.  Let me be frank.  The die hards can stay here - looks to me like
you lurk till you see an opportunity to criticize and cause trouble.  You'd
get kicked out the "other list" - something that can't really happen here
as there are too many back doors in.

There was once some bickering on the other list, but a certain someone
left.  Guess what, so did the bickering.  More irony.  They thought the
problem was everyone else.  I am subscribed here and will not allow bad
mouthing and misinformation of the other list go unchallenged.  In case
anyone has never noticed, my promotions of the other list here has almost
always followed its having been brought up here first, and usually in a
negative way.  As is the case this time.  Bring it up (esp. to cut it down)
and I'll bring it up more.   I didn't know these lists were in
competition - but apparently some long time subscribers here have some
sentimental investment in Leps-l and can't accept the fact that most people
are now on specialist lists.  NABA list, regional lists, watcher lists, a
taxonomic list.  People can only handle so much email - and they want the
topics they are interested in.  Leps-l is the parent (grandfather) list.
THANK YOU LEPS-L, really.   But now the kids have grown up, gotten married
and MOVED OUT.  (to CN leps, SW leps, VA et al leps, an on and on.)

> Hence, it is a mystery to me why Leps-L has become so mute, unless
> there are lists that didn't exist a few years ago that are more suited to
> the subscriber's interests, but that still doesn't explain the shift in
> argumentative activity from Leps-L to Leps-Talk (assuming this has
> occurred).

This soooo obvious.  It hasn't occurred.  The argumentativeness is still
right here.  No body stays on lists with constant yadda yadda yadda.
Leps-l has been here forever and has exactly 360 subscribers - and now
almost no activity.  The leps-talk list didn't even start till Nov. of
2001.  It now has 238 subscribed (4 are on the inactive list - and I have
recently unsubscribed over 30 lurkers).  Our first month had 62 posts.  We
quickly hit two hundred and have been averaging between 300 and 500 posts
for a long time.  This would not be occurring if something positive was not
occurring.  This is the exact same situation will many other list serves.

I, for example, subscribe to SoWestLep which is very good and
> more relevant to where I live and collect.

So am I.  Thus, you notice the number of posts that are also cross posted
on both SoWest and Leps-talk.  (By the way, this is one situation where
cross posting is called for and the vast majority of both lists are not
subscribed to the other.)



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