Monarch Extinction (substantial evidence?)

patrick foley patfoley at
Mon Nov 17 17:54:57 EST 2003


I would say the same to Eligio as I say to you. Back it up or find 
someone to back it up. Otherwise you are fighting science with snapshots.

I must say also that your technique has become increasingly subtle and 
what would have been called Jesuitical in the bad old days. As a 
Jesuit-trained critic, I appreciate the cleverness. But I still think 
you should back up your very strong claims with evidence that can 
compete with the evidence provided by Brower and his coauthors Guillermo 
Castilleja, Armando Peralta, Jose Lopez-Garcia, Luis Bojorque-Tapia, 
Saloman Diaz, Daniela Melarejo and Monica Missrie.

The point is not that we want the forces of dogmatic science and 
environmental bureaucracy to overwhelm the poor downtrodden indigenous 
people of the world.

The point is that we need to protect habitat in Mexico as elsewhere. 
Anyone who has done much science or nature in Mexico knows how poorly 
the wonderful natural heritage is protected there. From poaching to 
deforestation to corruption to touristic development, Mexico is in 
trouble. And I am happy to see the Mexican people setting aside reserves 
and preserves. In the long run, and often in the short run it, will pay 
the local people to have these wildlife refuges in their neighborhood.

I would rather not have environmental laws, just as I would rather have 
fewer laws in general. But there are too many people in the world to 
ignore our effect on the rest of nature. Populist antienvironmentalism 
is as false a pose as it is a solution to the world's real problems.

patfoley at

Paul Cherubini wrote:

> Pat Foley wrote:
>>your photographs provide evidence that there is little degradation.
>>I have not called your view speculation. I have said that you need
>>to back it up and submit quantitative evidence for peer review.
> Pat, consider the practical implications of what you are saying.
> Some of the indigenous Mexicans living in the monarch sanctuary
> region are aware of the American monarch extinction press releases
> which claim "in the last 30 years, nearly half the prime forest in the
> [Mexican overwintering] area has been degraded or destroyed."
> Now consider, hypothetically, if one of these indigenous Mexicans
> such as Eligio Garcia
> wanted to go to reporters himself with current and historical
> aerial and ground photos of the Monarch reserves that show
> there has been little degradation.  Should Eligio's photos
> be dismissed by the American/Canadian/UK public and scientific
> community simply because they have not been been submitted
> and accepted as sound evidence by a peer reviewed
> scientific journal?
> If so, then the indigenous people living in the sanctuary  region
> would be locked into a defenseless position.
> Paul Cherubini
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:


   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: 

More information about the Leps-l mailing list