Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years

neil at neil at
Wed Oct 8 12:29:01 EDT 2003

MWalker at wrote in reply to Patrick Foley
> I obviously don't have the cerebral capacity of Neil Jones to analyze and
> figure out the things of life, and I am admittedly more prone to use my
> heart than my mind in making decisions - I suppose that this means I will
> soon be evolved out of the gene pool anyway - but if we're going to start
> suggesting that Brower et al should be credited with SAVING the Monarchs,
> well, then I'd like to be the first to say "poppycock".
> Mark Walker.

Actually Mark I don't consider myself particularly smart at all.
What really frustrates me is if someone as dumb as me can see these things are wrong then they really must be obviously wrong.

You really do get wound up with my straight talking. :-) I am afraid that's they way a lot of boffins are.

Patrick Foley is far smarter than me on these things. He is a world class scientist in his field with an international reputation.
That's right Mark, the guy that you've just accused of talking "poppycock" without any evidence just on what you feel. Oh well, I guess that's life, though if I'd have done it goodness knows what you would have said.

But wait a minute, I do believe you actually mentioned the word evolution as if you believed in it. Am I to conclude that you've finally abandoned the creationist ideas which prevent you from believing almost any of modern science?

There may be some hope for you after all. :-)

Seriously though, all joking aside, chill out Mark. Put some nice religious music on and pause before you post. Believe it or not even a died in the wool agnostic like me can enjoy good religious music and I have a lovely Welsh hymn playing in a loop on a cd in my computer as I type. In fact I'm one of the people singing it.:-)

Tydi, a roddaist liw i'r wawr,
A hud i'r machlud mwyn;
Tydi, a luniaist gerdd a sawr
Y gwanwyn yn y llwyn;
O! cadw ni rhag colli'r hud
Sydd heddiw'n crwydro drwy'r holl fyd.

Lovely stuff that a translation can only poorly imitate and the music well that defies description.

Thou gavest colour to the dawn,
and magic to the gentle sunset;
Thou created the art and essence,
of the spring in the grove;
O! keep us from loosing the magic
that today ranges through the whole world.

What is the point of all this. Well, there is a dichotomy in the thinking of people like you and Ron and that of Patrick and me.

You two are "idealists" who are often very religious and spiritual.
We are "conceptualisers" who are often very rational and logical.

To put it very  simply (probably too simply), tough minded conceptualisers doubt things and kind hearted idealists believe things. Both types are good at different things. As I have said Patrick is very good at science. He was probably born that way.

To us Paul Cherubini is clearly wrong because we like to understand things in order to appreciate how they work. We look at his explanations and they are full of holes, we point out the holes and he just repeats the same bad argument. This behaviour is political debating not science or worse his behaviour may just be his problem.

I can appreciate the magical beauty of the world but I want to unmask the magic and know how it works. One of the glories of nature is the Monarch hibernation sites in Mexico. It is a phenomenon for which the word "magnificent" is the pale wan best I can find.

Paul Cherubini is not correct. His behaviour is neither that of a good scientist nor is it that of an honest man. His behaviour is bad for the study of lepidoptera. His behaviour is bad for the survival one of wonders of the world; one of  the items of "magic that today ranges through the whole world."

Neil Jones- Neil at
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn
Bog National Nature Reserve


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