[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

[MexicoDoug]

Dennis,

It would be helpful to know whether these species' disappearances in 
your area were doing well before the Bt corn, or already on the brink 
of loss due to the farming practices.  Also, whether this loss you've 
documented is due to the larva of the respective species ingesting 
amounts toxic to them and dying due to it as was proposed by the 
Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue the unfortunate situation was, 
at best, not helped by a raging controversy which IMO served to divert 
and divide attention from these issues, and not present work in 
alternate peer reviewed journals - which could be as simple as computer 
models to maintain a greater degree of biodiversity.

Could a more collaborative environment have come up with real solutions 
and perhaps a coordinated crop rotation scheme which maintained some 
useful wild area interspersed intelligently (where students at local ag 
colleges in a supportive roll could participate in the design as part 
of their curriculum)?  Perhaps not.  But it's not too late to find out 
- I hope.

I'm not trying to be a Monday morning quarterback; and my post was not 
in support of Bt-corn.  I'm glad it's not in my backyard, and how 
boring it must be to try to go Lepping in such an area.  It's seeing 
the tactics used by scientists we trust.  My favorite butterfly 
observing grounds was a unique mountain foothill habitat on disturbed 
ground which had become overgrown and basically wild and teaming with 
over 100 species of butterflies, and at any given time at least 1/3 
that amount.  Now, the many hectares, without exception, are parking 
lots and malls and shopping areas in a series of new sprawled out 
commercial centers - and at the boundaries are residential areas with 
manicured lawns and the like.  The development wiped out everything 
except the cockroaches and people and occasional vagrant that ends up 
plastered to a radiator grill.

I am sure we all are sensitive to the overpopulation problem.  Every 
year the US adds 3,000,000 people.  In 1965 it was 194 million; today, 
over 315 million.  It is difficult for me to fathom how much equivalent 
habit is destroyed for each person for their activities (imagine 
3,000,000 dumped concentrated into your state - that is approximately 
the average amount by state since 1965, btw) , "infrastructure 
development", and of course the food they require.  For some reason no 
one is having any success in controlling this and we are stuck with 
these consequences everywhere.  We could outsource farming, by 
importing more food from Canada, etc., but then we'd only be exporting 
the environmental drain with it to other places...

Very sorry to hear what you reported,
Doug




-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com>
To: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>; MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

Doug,
The article below says Bt corn was 19% of the crop then. It's 80-90% 
now. While all of this Monarch concern has been going on, we have lost 
5 prairie obligate butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/ Bt corn 
region (my data in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by corn.
Dennis Schlicht
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: MexicoDoug
  To: monarch at saber.net ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu
  Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35   AM
  Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon


"Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
for   using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like   it:"

Paul,

Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know and wouldn't   expect he was the
source.

I wonder what the majority of unbiased   scientists think of someone of
Lincoln Brower's repute throwing out words   such as "Armageddon" to
describe the evolving sciences in   agro-biotechnology.  This is really
an insult to science;   'Armageddon' has deeply religious connotations
and is from the New   Testament Bible the destruction of the Devil an
epic battle when God comes   down and unleashes his fury.  What place 
do
such religious   overtone-statements have in science other than to
polarize/bias, divert   and offend researchers and constructive
discussion?

I just Googled,   and sadly it seems you are right.  I found this 
article
in Mother   Jones that Brower had written in 2001, which was a result 
of
the GMO   scandal that developed at that time:

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85

It   gives me insight, to say the least.

It seems that Brower for some   reason couldn't participate in the USDA
grant for the research into the   GMO-larva topic program and $200,000
grant (which he considered a   pittance).  Another diverse team of
experts with some of the finest   academic credentials in this country
was selected and a paper resulted   published in the most prestigious
peer reviewed journal in the United   States - The Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113

Brower's   political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as a
scathing,   rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory - political
mobilization   strategy.  Is that an appropriate place to refute a
publication by   trashing everyone in government and industry?  Or 
would
it be better   to respond in the same peer review journal which accepts 

contrary/disagreement submissions in a specific format for this purpose 

called "Letters to the PNAS".  I couldn't find any retort.    Maybe
you'll have better luck:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters

In   the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published in 
thwe
PNAS   himself, at least 4 times.  He is also an excellent speaker.

Is   the "Bt-corn killing monarch larvae" in the field still
objectionable by   ecologists anymore, on a scientific basis? Now I 
think
it finally hit me   why the monarch topic is avoided by some list
members.

Best
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From:   Paul Cherubini &lt;monarch at saber.net&gt;
To: Leps List   &lt;leps-l at mailman.yale.edu&gt;
Sent:   Fri, Feb 15, 2013 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, MexicoDoug   wrote:

&gt;  I added the search term "Armageddon" for   fun.

Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
for   using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like it:
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php

In   the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use
in the GMO crops   of the upper Midwest:

“It kills everything. It’s biodiversity   Armageddon,"

And Lincoln and Chip Taylor collaborated on a paper
and   wrote:  "We conclude that, because of the extensive
use of glyphosate   herbicide on crops that are genetically
modified to resist the herbicide,   milkweeds will disappear
almost completely from croplands."

But the   critically important information they don't mention
in their paper is that   the field margins of these Roundup
treated GMO crops are teaming with   bumblebees, honeybees,
monarchs and butterflies like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE

So   those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate
example of    "Biodiversity Armageddon"

Paul Cherubini
El Dorado,   Calif.

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