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----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Gorodenski" <stanlep at commspeed.net>
To: <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] Deniers
>
>
> On 2/17/2013 9:29 AM, Strathy wrote:
>> The continued use of the word 'deniers' on this list is so childish.
>
> I changed the subject title to Deniers because duplicate messages were
> being sent to the list (which has now been corrected. Thanks, Larry). I
> felt my follow up message that took place about an hour or so later, the
> one I renamed to Deniers, could have been confused as just another
> duplicate of the one I had previously sent if I kept the same original
> subject title (which was RE:[Leps-l] Potential loss of overwintering
> monarch habitat in Mexico). I wanted to make sure everyone knew this was
> a new message from me and so I changed the subject to Deniers (a quick
> and easy change to make), not imagining in the least this would be an
> objectionable term to some. No apologies, though.
> Stan
>
>> I've been reading and learning from the very highly esteemed people in
>> this group (and in other groups) for years. You guys are WAY above
>> resorting to referring to people who question your hypotheses with a
>> term that is repugnant most people on this list. I love reading the
>> various points of view, and I can see persuasive arguments on both
>> sides, but the word denier just ruins any credibility you might have
>> in my mind. All we need is the other side to start referring to their
>> opponents as 'bed wetters' and then we can all pull each others hair
>> at recess. Next thing you know we will have the collectors / watchers
>> nonsense rear it's ugly head again. Rise above it peoples.
>>
>> That's my honest opinion from a very VERY amateur entomologist.
>>
>> Todd in Manitoba (formerly in Toronto)
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:12 AM, spruance spruance
>> <spruance at beyondbb.com <mailto:spruance at beyondbb.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all, First some local weather data:
>>
>> At lower elevation (4,500') on the east side of the continental
>> divide in Alamogordo NM, our temps fluctuate daily, as is normal
>> for the desert, and I see butterflies every day in my butterfly
>> garden. And the normal "winter"geometrids gather nightly at my
>> porch light in the crepuscular hours before the temps drop into
>> the 20s. We have snow on the mountain behind my house, but the
>> snow pack is well below "normal" (whatever that is now-a-days),
>> and the moisture content of the snow is very low. The
>> contribution of the snow to Spring run-offs will be negligable,
>> compared to "normal." The leps survive as they have for millenia,
>> but the species composition and relative abundance are undoubtedly
>> changing. We desperately need longitudinal quantitative data on
>> Lepidoptera (temp & precipitation changes are well documented
>> with real data for New Mexico) else the climate change deniers
>> will continue to cherry pick our weakness to support other
>> scientific data that human caused change is real.
>>
>> Out comes the soap-box:
>>
>> Sadly nearly all Lepidopterists, collectors, observers, and
>> photographers, cherry pick when they are in the field by pursuing
>> the rare species, or the species needed to fill holes in a
>> collection, or to get the best photo of the best specimen, or to
>> report species sure to get the attention of other Lepidopterists.
>> Species lists that appear in these discussion groups do not report
>> absolute numbers, nor do they document detailed habitat
>> associations of the reported species.
>>
>> I am not negative about this, I'm encouraged that there are so
>> many interested people willing to share. I encourage us to do
>> better. I hope someday our observations will be comparable to the
>> long term data being collected by the Long-Term Monitoring of
>> Butterflies project of The Ohio Lepidopterists.
>>
>> http://www.ohiolepidopterists.org/bflymonitoring/downloads/BMP%20Manual%202008%20-%20large%20pages.pdf
>>
>> Please keep the observations coming. Please add some scientific
>> quality to the observations. Please, as I do, take photographs of
>> each observation site, at different times of the year, over many
>> years. With the digital age the photos are easy to incorporate
>> into word processing documents for easy annotation and long term
>> storage.
>>
>> The weather underground site http://www.wunderground.com/ is an
>> excellent place to obtain actual data for the exact time and place
>> you took the photo and made the observations.
>>
>> Time to put the soapbox away.
>>
>> Best wishes to all from sunny, unseasonably warm, and
>> drought-stricken southern New Mexico.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> Eric Metzler
>> Alamogordo NM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Stan Gorodenski
>> <stanlep at commspeed.net <mailto:stanlep at commspeed.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>> Regarding anthropomorphic climate change (ACC) deniers. I had
>> some
>> personal experience where someone approached me, in email,
>> about a paper
>> they wanted me to read. It was presented in such a way as to
>> give the
>> impression that it was just an interesting paper they wanted
>> me to read
>> and to get my reaction. However, I knew this person was a ACC
>> denier and
>> his ulterior motive was to give me a paper that to him showed
>> how right
>> he was and how wrong I was. I read it and discovered some
>> serious flaws
>> in the analysis and data. I presented this to him - and then
>> heard
>> nothing more about it. He still is a ACC denier, though. It
>> appears that
>> when something detracts from the beliefs of some individuals,
>> it is
>> ignored. If it supports their beliefs, it is remembered. This
>> goes along
>> with your idea that deniers do not question their own belief
>> system and
>> what motivates them.
>> Stan
>>
>> On 2/16/2013 9:10 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
>> >
>> > On 2/16/2013 8:16 PM, Foley, Patrick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Count me (and the great majority of atmospheric scientists)
>> among the climate change alarmists.
>> >>
>> >> This is however not my area of expertise. Paul should go
>> argue this out with NOAA scientists. Or any atmospheric
>> scientists.
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeling_Curve
>> >>
>> >> Skepticism in science is a very useful tool. But one should
>> be skeptical of ones own views also. Nietzsche said once " The
>> courage of one's convictions -- a common error; real courage
>> is questioning one's own convictions." Scientists (including
>> climate change "alarmists") do this all the time. That is the
>> essence of science. As far as I can see, most climate change
>> deniers do not question their own belief systems or what
>> motivates them.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Good point. This never occurred to me. I wonder if climate
>> change
>> > deniers even know themselves what motivates them. I can see
>> all kinds of
>> > influences, including the political and religious group one
>> belongs to.
>> > I also wonder if it is the culture of anti-science that is
>> fostering
>> > this. The deniers are intelligent. Because of the
>> anti-science culture
>> > they make their own interpretations of data in lieu of those
>> of scientists.
>> > Stan
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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