[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Dennis Schlicht
dws1108 at msn.com
Mon Feb 18 00:26:19 EST 2013
My apologies to John Shuey, he was talking about restorations. Their management can be much different than on native prairies. Our losses in Iowa and Minnesota are on managed often isolated native prairies. Their is little hope of them coming back like the successes in his restorations.
Dennis Schlicht
----- Original Message -----
From: John Shuey<mailto:jshuey at TNC.ORG>
To: Jim Wiker<mailto:papaipema at aol.com> ; dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com> ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
First of all shuey never said the following - I'm afraid Jim and I agree that the elephant in the closet is prescribed fire prairie management. These isolated preserves are partially and sometimes totally burned and burned often. If we were to bring it up on the list serve it will start another set of attacks. last year Shuey even wrote in the Lep News that after they (he and the TNC) burned the hell out of their Indiana prairies they now need to work on getting the species back. We call that prairie creationism, right Jim?
What he said was that after planting over 6,000 acres of old crop land to over 600 species of vascular plants, and that we are now waiting for those species that are hiding in the creases – mainly skippers, to move into the restoration. Perhaps the problem with this entire set of stupid rants is that many of the most vocal participants in these debates aren’t exactly the sharpest tools in the shed.
If you want to just sit around and whine about stuff – that’s fine. But quit bitching about people like Dr. Taylor who are actually willing to go out and do something about the things they care about.
And<file://and/> FYI, things like Poanes massasoit, Euphyes dion, Satyrodes eurydice, Euphyes bimacula, Problema byssus and Speyeria idalia have found their way into the restoration from the creases of those so called poorly managed preserves adjacent to the restoration. Were in the “willing to actually do something about it world”, we call that conservation.
Shuey
From: leps-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu [mailto:leps-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Wiker
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 6:52 PM
To: dws1108 at msn.com; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Dennis and Doug,
Both, nicely said, well written and all valid. Dennis, I completely agree. All things combined (it's like a pheasant flying past a dozen shotguns) sooner or later, you're gonna get it. They have little chance. And Doug, to answer one of you questions: these were established populations, especially Ottoe. I left out Sassacus because it was a fringe species, but it appears gone too. Arogos was an anomaly, but the rest were resident breeding populations that at times were huge.
Dennis is right though, these things have as much to worry about from over management as they do development. And, once they're gone (especially skippers) you just can't put them back. Has anyone seen that work yet? They are not like a chalkboard, you can't erase them and think that they can just be relocated. At least in my experiences, when they are gone, they're gone.
Jim Wiker
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com>>; Jim Wiker <papaipema at aol.com<mailto:papaipema at aol.com>>; Andrew Williams <studiesnature at gmail.com<mailto:studiesnature at gmail.com>>
Sent: Sun, Feb 17, 2013 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Thanks for you candid sympathy.
I'm afraid Jim and I agree that the elephant in the closet is prescribed fire prairie management. These isolated preserves are partially and sometimes totally burned and burned often. If we were to bring it up on the list serve it will start another set of attacks. last year Shuey even wrote in the Lep News that after they (he and the TNC) burned the hell out of their Indiana prairies they now need to work on getting the species back. We call that prairie creationism, right Jim?
So we have isolated prairie obligate leps, surrounded by toxic corn, with huge changes in climate (moisture changes) and therefor vegetation changes. The TNC and the DNRs are the enemy of biodiversity here.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: MexicoDoug<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com>
To: papaipema at aol.com<mailto:papaipema at aol.com> ; dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com> ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Thanks Jim, Thanks Dennis,
I'm saddened to hear this. I also think a reasonable interpretation
could attribute this to the farming practices, and if everything is
sitting in the middle of the corn varieties bred to have herbicide
tolerance ... it doesn't take a genius to have at least a little
confidence as to the causal relationship with the change in farming
technique.
I don't have the same sensitivity to this issue as you. In my case it
is simply an empty feeling that accompanies the continued loss of
biodiversity in some place far away while I have my own set of
ecological problems closer to the heart. So it is with the due respect
of not living with it in my backyard that I ask your indulgence to
think about my comments.
First, the good; I want to congratulate you both on dedicating your
time to insects that in the public perception are probably
insignificant, drab little skippers which get about as much respect as
moths in musty closet. I personally find miniature skippers
marvelously exquisite and certainly more intellectually challenging
than Monarchs sans the migration phenomenon. You are presenting first
hand data which when combined with other species statistics gives us a
more concrete measuring stick of ecological health by not picking some
"pretty" generalized ecological indicator. Far more useful for
scientific analysis to describe the rate the ecosystem is declining.
Next, the bad: As scientific, the hypothesis that it is Bt corn (or
whatever the hypothesis) needs to be tested rather than conveniently
assumed as I did in my first paragraph, I want to be sure that I am
properly interpreting the loss in its context. Are these species at the
fringe of their ranges and is there any other explanation we should
rule out? The edge of a USDA type zone which breathes cyclically? And
was this land the robust natural habitat for these skippers before the
farmers came on to the scene ... or was their appearance likely
prompted by prior farming techniques which altered the ecosystem and
gave them the cornfield-niche in the first place? There are more
considerations I'm sure you've both though about, and it is a very
healthy discussion to go through them as the due diligence of
presenting unbiased statements.
Finally, the ugly: I hope anyone reading this knows that my question
was not whether the test-tube bred corn was detrimental to habitat. It
was whether the Bt-Corn pollen, is killing the larvae as the Cornell
study said it would and was used indiscriminately under what would be
pseudoscientific pretences to create anarchy in the agricultural
industry and all of its dependents 12-15 years ago, and was still
kicking and screaming 10 years ago. If it didn't, I'm relieved but
need to re-evaluate the reputation of those who jumped on this
bandwagon and see whether they fudged their research techniques for the
purpose distorting truth and advancing an agenda. Please don't think
I'm supporting the use of these agricultural techniques. I need
Bt-corn in my zone as much as I want to live next to a garbage dump.
But a balanced approach is imperative where scientific credibility is
not abused by those who prey on the ignorance of the public perception
because they feel they have a superior moral calling. There is no room
in science for Popes. In Sagan's words - there are no "scientific
authorities", just a method and to that I would add a scholarly conduct
which is as old as science itself, when it branched off from philosophy
and religion.
Epilogue: In a country where less than 2% of the population is
interested in doing commercial farming and land is being gobbled up at
IMO truly alarming rates due to unfettered population growth which is
transparently demonstrable (I'm an alarmist! ;-) , it is not surprising
to me that ecological niches are decreasing. I fail to see how a small
group of elite and affluent find terrorizing technology a moral calling
rather than utilizing systematic approaches to optimizing what we
have...and going back to the basics of the 1960's ZPG population growth
models. The current national model of the USA is growth, growth,
growth - for everything from collecting taxes, to growing business and
government, increasing infrastructure, and just about everything else.
I would expect to lose niches along the way since these political
pressures for growth require that agriculture becomes more efficient as
the industry is asked to grow more food with less acreage and manpower.
The fact that the corn-belt is looking more like a factory is one
visible manifestation of this. If the glass is half empty, I'd just
say, let’s all move to the Sierra foothills of California and Oregon,
and then north to Alaska. But if it is half full, just involve the
community and share the beauty of nature in a positive manner to
support a culture of appreciation instead of finger pointing which will
only turn people off from scientists and the scientific method in
general. Provide unbiased statistics and have people miss nature
instead of run away from the scientific alarmists, infidels and
priests. Since this thread began a week ago, US population has
increased by 60,000. That is 1.2 million more acres (1,800 square
miles) of habitat disruption: 500,000 acres in the US and 700,000 acres
outsourced. The total area mentioned is double the area of Champaign
County, Illinois. Crap. Now, to till my first vegetable garden and
identify which politicians are ZPG friendly....
Best
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Wiker <papaipema at aol.com<mailto:papaipema at aol.com>>
To: dws1108 <dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>>; leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 10:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Doug,
Same thing A. arogos, H. ottoe, H. metea and H. leonardus here in
Illinois. Most where common to abundant (where they occurred) into the
mid 1990's. At that point they began a rather rapid decline and now
haven't been seen for a number of years. Ottoe in particular, well into
the 90's could be found by the hundreds in several sites, I saw the
last one in Illinois with Bob Pyle in 2008. It, nor the others have
been seen since.
Jim Wiker
Greenview, IL
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com>>
Cc: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Doug,
They were doing Ok through the 80's and most of the 90's but then were
wiped out by the late 2000's. Poweshiek numbers went from around 100 on
one site to none by 2010. These species were on preserves, not farm
land, but were surrounded by row crops. Gone or nearly so are O.
poweshiek, A. arogos, H. dacotae, H. ottoe and C. inornata. A few
others are not far behind.
Dennis Schlicht
Iowa Lepidoptera Project
----- Original Message -----
From: MexicoDoug
To: dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>
Cc: leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Dennis,
It would be helpful to know whether these species' disappearances in
your area were doing well before the Bt corn, or already on the brink
of loss due to the farming practices. Also, whether this loss you've
documented is due to the larva of the respective species ingesting
amounts toxic to them and dying due to it as was proposed by the
Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue the unfortunate situation was,
at best, not helped by a raging controversy which IMO served to
divert
and divide attention from these issues, and not present work in
alternate peer reviewed journals - which could be as simple as
computer
models to maintain a greater degree of biodiversity.
Could a more collaborative environment have come up with real
solutions
and perhaps a coordinated crop rotation scheme which maintained some
useful wild area interspersed intelligently (where students at local
ag
colleges in a supportive roll could participate in the design as part
of their curriculum)? Perhaps not. But it's not too late to find
out
- I hope.
I'm not trying to be a Monday morning quarterback; and my post was
not
in support of Bt-corn. I'm glad it's not in my backyard, and how
boring it must be to try to go Lepping in such an area. It's seeing
the tactics used by scientists we trust. My favorite butterfly
observing grounds was a unique mountain foothill habitat on disturbed
ground which had become overgrown and basically wild and teaming with
over 100 species of butterflies, and at any given time at least 1/3
that amount. Now, the many hectares, without exception, are parking
lots and malls and shopping areas in a series of new sprawled out
commercial centers - and at the boundaries are residential areas with
manicured lawns and the like. The development wiped out everything
except the cockroaches and people and occasional vagrant that ends up
plastered to a radiator grill.
I am sure we all are sensitive to the overpopulation problem. Every
year the US adds 3,000,000 people. In 1965 it was 194 million;
today,
over 315 million. It is difficult for me to fathom how much
equivalent
habit is destroyed for each person for their activities (imagine
3,000,000 dumped concentrated into your state - that is approximately
the average amount by state since 1965, btw) , "infrastructure
development", and of course the food they require. For some reason
no
one is having any success in controlling this and we are stuck with
these consequences everywhere. We could outsource farming, by
importing more food from Canada, etc., but then we'd only be
exporting
the environmental drain with it to other places...
Very sorry to hear what you reported,
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>>
To: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>>; MexicoDoug
<mexicodoug at aol.com<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com>>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
Doug,
The article below says Bt corn was 19% of the crop then. It's 80-90%
now. While all of this Monarch concern has been going on, we have
lost
5 prairie obligate butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/ Bt corn
region (my data in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by corn.
Dennis Schlicht
----- Original Message -----
From: MexicoDoug
To: monarch at saber.net<mailto:monarch at saber.net> ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
"Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
for using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like
it:"
Paul,
Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know and wouldn't expect he was the
source.
I wonder what the majority of unbiased scientists think of someone
of
Lincoln Brower's repute throwing out words such as "Armageddon" to
describe the evolving sciences in agro-biotechnology. This is really
an insult to science; 'Armageddon' has deeply religious connotations
and is from the New Testament Bible the destruction of the Devil an
epic battle when God comes down and unleashes his fury. What place
do
such religious overtone-statements have in science other than to
polarize/bias, divert and offend researchers and constructive
discussion?
I just Googled, and sadly it seems you are right. I found this
article
in Mother Jones that Brower had written in 2001, which was a result
of
the GMO scandal that developed at that time:
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85<http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85>
It gives me insight, to say the least.
It seems that Brower for some reason couldn't participate in the
USDA
grant for the research into the GMO-larva topic program and $200,000
grant (which he considered a pittance). Another diverse team of
experts with some of the finest academic credentials in this country
was selected and a paper resulted published in the most prestigious
peer reviewed journal in the United States - The Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences:
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113<http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113>
Brower's political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as
a
scathing, rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory - political
mobilization strategy. Is that an appropriate place to refute a
publication by trashing everyone in government and industry? Or
would
it be better to respond in the same peer review journal which
accepts
contrary/disagreement submissions in a specific format for this
purpose
called "Letters to the PNAS". I couldn't find any retort. Maybe
you'll have better luck:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters<http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters>
In the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published in
thwe
PNAS himself, at least 4 times. He is also an excellent speaker.
Is the "Bt-corn killing monarch larvae" in the field still
objectionable by ecologists anymore, on a scientific basis? Now I
think
it finally hit me why the monarch topic is avoided by some list
members.
Best
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Cherubini <monarch at saber.net<mailto:monarch at saber.net>>
To: Leps List <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon
On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, MexicoDoug wrote:
> I added the search term "Armageddon" for fun.
Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
for using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like it:
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php<http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php>
In the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use
in the GMO crops of the upper Midwest:
“It kills everything. It’s biodiversity Armageddon,"
And Lincoln and Chip Taylor collaborated on a paper
and wrote: "We conclude that, because of the extensive
use of glyphosate herbicide on crops that are genetically
modified to resist the herbicide, milkweeds will disappear
almost completely from croplands."
But the critically important information they don't mention
in their paper is that the field margins of these Roundup
treated GMO crops are teaming with bumblebees, honeybees,
monarchs and butterflies like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE>
So those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate
example of "Biodiversity Armageddon"
Paul Cherubini
El Dorado, Calif.
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