[SAC-FAST] [Fwd: RE: FAST subcommittee]

Wed Dec 12 12:14:26 EST 2007

It occurred to me after I sent my first response on your explanation of how the FAST algorithm works with Macedonia that some smaller places within Macedonia are also established indirectly under Europe. I think that's wrong but may happen because the "(Republic)" disappears from the qualifier. For example, Bitola is established in FAST indirectly under Macedonia (Republic) but Bitola Region is under Europe. Same for Ohrid and Ohrid Region. Perhaps the "region" is interrupting the algorithm.

Is "151  Macedonia (Republic) $z Kruševo $z Kruševo" (FAST authority record fst01312578) correct? I checked Hollywood and found that several of them also had three layers of hierarchy. But Hollywood in South Carolina got "South Carolina $z Hollywood (Charleston County)".

(I hope this momentary obsession with Macedonia isn't boring the pants off the rest of the task force.)

Sherman

----- Original Message -----
From: "O'Neill,Ed" <oneill at oclc.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:44 am
Subject: RE: RE: [SAC-FAST] [Fwd: RE: FAST subcommittee]
To: Sherman Clarke <sherman.clarke at nyu.edu>
Cc: sac-fast at mailman.yale.edu, "Arnold,Anya" <arnolda at oclc.org>, "Bennett,Rick" <bennetr at oclc.org>, "Childress,Eric" <childree at oclc.org>, "Clopton,Kay" <cloptonk at oclc.org>, "Dean,Becky" <deanr at oclc.org>, "Kammerer,Kerre" <kammerer at oclc.org>, lelh at loc.gov, loischan at uky.edu, "O'Neill,Ed" <oneill at oclc.org>, "Vizine-Goetz,Diane" <vizine at oclc.org>

> Hi Sherman,
>  
>   
>  
>  For Macedonia, in LCSH Macedonia (from the scope note) is used for 
> "works on the ancient country and kingdom of Macedonia" and Macedonia 
> (Republic) is used for the former Yugoslav Republic.  With very few 
> exceptions, the mapping for geographic names for LCSH to FAST is 
> one-to-one so that:
>  
>   
>  
>  Macedonia --> Macedonia
>  
>  Macedonia (Republic) --> Macedonia (Republic)
>  
>   
>  
>  i.e., the unqualified form is assumed to the ancient place.  While I 
> haven't looked carefully at the item, it is certainly possible that 
> the LCSH heading is wrong.  During the mapping, we verify that that 
> the heading is valid (established) but not that it is appropriate for 
> the title.
>  
>   
>  
>  As you point out, since most ancient places predate modern states and 
> often have were different boundaries, we used the continent for most 
> ancient jurisdictional names but not for natural features.  Otherwise 
> we found ourselves equating the Roman Empire with Italy.  
>  
>   
>  
>  We can discuss more in Philly, Ed 
>  
>   
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Sherman Clarke [mailto:sherman.clarke at nyu.edu] 
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:17 AM
>  To: O'Neill,Ed
>  Cc: sac-fast at mailman.yale.edu; Kammerer,Kerre
>  Subject: Re: RE: [SAC-FAST] [Fwd: RE: FAST subcommittee]
>  
>   
>  
>  Ed,
>  
>  A couple followup questions/comments at this point.
>  
>   
>  
>  On the Macedonia example, how does the algorithm attempt to determine 
> ancient or modern Macedonia? (You can explain this in person at 
> Midwinter.) The title in this case is about an earlier 20th century 
> revolutionary. The use of continent for ancient places is interesting: 
> most ancient places predate modern states and our LCSH-informed bias 
> is for current geographic name; does this only apply to countries? I 
> checked Lascaux in the FAST authority file and found "France -- 
> Lascaux Cave." Checking gaul, I found "Europe -- Gaul." In the VR 
> arena, folks like the idea of using the TGN hierarchy but I don't 
> think anyone feels the need for the whole hierarchy for, say, Paris, France:
>  
>  World (facet) - Europe (continent) - France (nation) - Île-de-France 
> (region) - Ville de Paris, Département de (department) - Paris 
> (inhabited place).
>  
>   
>  
>  My first reaction on the value of FAST author/title headings is that 
> they're probably not valuable. For something famous like Huck Finn 
> (FAST = Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Twain, Mark)), the FAST 
> heading is ok but I'm not sure that "Ben and me (Dodds, Terry)" is 
> very helpful.
>  
>   
>  
>  On to Philadelphia.
>  
>   
>  
>  Sherman
>  
>   
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  
>  From: "O'Neill,Ed" <oneill at oclc.org>
>  
>  Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:16 pm
>  
>  Subject: RE: [SAC-FAST] [Fwd: RE: FAST subcommittee]
>  
>  To: Sherman Clarke <sherman.clarke at nyu.edu>
>  
>  Cc: sac-fast at mailman.yale.edu, "Kammerer,Kerre" <kammerer at oclc.org>
>  
>   
>  
>   
>  
>  > Hi Sherman,
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Thanks for the comments.  The algorithmic mapping is still an earlier
>  
>  > beta version and this helps us identify the problems.  I have added 
> my
>  
>  > thoughts below. 
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Happy holidays; See you in Philly,
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Ed
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  
>  > From: sac-fast-bounces at mailman.yale.edu
>  
>  > [mailto:sac-fast-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] On Behalf Of Sherman Clarke
>  
>  > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:41 AM
>  
>  > To: sac-fast at mailman.yale.edu
>  
>  > Subject: Re: [SAC-FAST] [Fwd: RE: FAST subcommittee]
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Qiang and all--
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > I printed out about 20 pages of sample records and looked at them. 
> Below
>  
>  > some comments with the ocm number of relevant record indicated:
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm36513477: "Early works to 1800" in LCSH became "Early works" in 
> FAST;
>  
>  > interesting, not a problem, probably to consolidate variations on "Early
>  
>  > works to ..."?
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >       Exactly
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm00073477: title of book includes 1970s, LCSH has Economic
>  
>  > history--1945-1971 and Economic history--1971-1990; alas, that results
>  
>  > in FAST 648 of 1945-1990; I think this wouldn't happen in real
>  
>  > application of FAST where you give dates of coverage but it is rather
>  
>  > unfortunate in algorithmic translation of LCSH
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >       For algorithmic mapping, FAST simply uses the LCSH periods.  
> If
>  
>  > the period heading was manually assigned, 1970 - 1979 would be
>  
>  > preferable.
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm22243477: LCSH has --Macedonia which becomes Europe--Macedonia in
>  
>  > FAST; why is Macedonia divided indirectly but most places aren't, e.g.,
>  
>  > Nepal, Germany, Argentina (among the records I have, as well as U.S.
>  
>  > places which I understand) - is this because of difference of Macedonia
>  
>  > in Greece and Macedonia in former Yugoslavia (FAST thesaurus also has
>  
>  > Macedonia, Iowa)? FAST also has places within Macedonia (Republic)
>  
>  > divided from Europe without intervening Macedonia (which goes back 
> to
>  
>  > decision to do two levels for geographics?)
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Ancient and extinct places are entered indirectly under the continent.
>  
>  > It this case, the algorithm assumes that the LCSH heading represented
>  
>  > the ancient country and kingdom of Macedonia rather than the current
>  
>  > jurisdiction.  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm35903477: LCSH has author/title (Lawson, Robert, 1892-1957. Ben 
> and
>  
>  > me) which doesn't get translated into FAST; no author/title conversion?
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > We do author/title conversions but there is no LC authority record 
> (and
>  
>  > therefore no FAST heading) for "Ben and me".  Currently we only 
> create 
>  
>  > a
>  
>  > FAST UT authority if (1) the author/title is established in the LC/NACO
>  
>  > file and (2) it has been used at least once as a subject in WorldCat.
>  
>  > We are considering establishing additional FAST titles for established
>  
>  > authors based on WorldCat usage but have not yet done so.  Any thoughts
>  
>  > on the value of adding titles based on usage? 
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm41313477: all of the LCSH have $x Estimates (this subdivision is 
> $x
>  
>  > in the free-floating publication) but it really looks strange in the
>  
>  > FAST breakout - ambiguity of form/topic for this subdivision is
>  
>  > exaggerated somehow when you're thinking facets - also, it makes me
>  
>  > realize I still think it's a bit strange that topical subdivisions 
> stay
>  
>  > with their base topic; it often makes sense but when it's repeated 
> on
>  
>  > multiple basic topics, it looks redundant
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > The form/topic ambiguity is a problem.  However, since Estimates is 
> not
>  
>  > valid as a form in FAST (or LCSH), it is treated as a topic and retained
>  
>  > with the main heading.
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > ocm06803477: one of LCSH has $y Cretaceous but it didn't become 
> FAST 648
>  
>  > - there is a FAST authority record for Cretaceous Geologic Period
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > This is a FAST conversion error which will be fixed in the next version
>  
>  > of the conversion software.
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Happy holidays and see you in Philadelphia.
>  
>  > 
>  
>  >  
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > Sherman
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > _______________________________________________
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > SAC-FAST mailing list
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > SAC-FAST at mailman.yale.edu
>  
>  > 
>  
>  > http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/sac-fast
>  
>  > 
>  
>  