[Leps-l] Finally Announced: The size of the Mexican monarch overwintering colonies this past winter.

[MexicoDoug]

 Roger, I could have phrased that better, as I do not know the answer as to whether a deemed “non-migratory” subspecies can significantly  develop (or revert) to exhibit “migratory” behavior. 
If an experiment were or has been done to release at the opportune moment the “non-migratory” Monarchs, say endemic to Palm Beach, FL, in the “migratory’s” geography to study its initial behavior, it could be convincing to me. I would expect the PB Monarchs to overwinter in Wisconsin if released there (and presumably perish), Rather than initiating/joining  any migration. 
That could be an argument in favor of recognizing a separate subspecies based on the single behavioral (migration) trait.
Are there any clear physical traits that separate the “non-migratory” Monarchs in FL from their migratory peers? I was just asking as I don’t know and was curious when you suggested that migratory behavior alone was a sufficient condition to define a subspecies. I originally referred to the Caribbean subspecies but sticking to non-migratory FL Monarchs is clearer for the purposes of my question.
Kindest wishesDoug
    On Friday, May 27, 2022, 11:46:31 AM EDT, Roger Kuhlman <rkuhlman at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Okay but how do certain Monarch populations get to make long-distance migrations and others do not. Also my understanding of a subspecies is that they are not necessarily reproductively segregated. I am not sure what you mean by segregated. Non-migratory Monarchs are segregated from migratory populations as  I understand it.Roger KuhlmanFrom: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 12:24 PM
To: Roger Kuhlman <rkuhlman at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] Finally Announced: The size of the Mexican monarch overwintering colonies this past winter. Calling something a subspecies based on migration to me would require demonstrating two segregating populations at the very minimum. The p. plexippus ssp. is already split. Migration is one descriptor, but not defining trait in my understanding?
Is there evidence that Monarchs from  p. megalippe if that is a currently accepted division, have evidence of not migrating when released in the migratory areas? Just wondering, not judging.
Kindest wishes,Doug
On Thursday, May 26, 2022, 11:04:08 AM EDT, Roger Kuhlman <rkuhlman at hotmail.com> wrote:

That some Monarchs migrate has to be because they are genetically programed to do so. They do not learn or voluntarily choose to adopt this lifestyle so yes I would say the migrating Monarch is a subspecies. In any case migrating Monarchs are important piece of Biodiversity and anything that threatens this Biodiversity is a very bad thing. Aren't we losing enough Biodiversity in the World today because of Human Overpopulation and Overdevelopment as it is?
Roger KuhlmanAnn Arbor, MichiganFrom: Leps-l <leps-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of Stan Gorodenski <stanlep at commspeed.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2022 3:21 PM
To: leps-l at mailman.yale.edu <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] Finally Announced: The size of the Mexican monarch overwintering colonies this past winter. 

On 5/25/2022 11:47 AM, Roger Kuhlman wrote:
> found there. Of course this present lack of Milkweeds can only be 
> detrimental to breeding Monarch populations in our area. Take away 
> masses on Common Milkweeds in the fields and open area, and Monarchs 
> are bound to suffer immensely. Who says we could not lose the 
> migrating Monarchs as a subspecies?

Are you saying that because they migrate they are a subspecies?
Stan

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